Foundation question.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Plans, at least prior to class in March, are for completely below grade basement. Would ya'll share the pros and cons of having the "roof" of the basement be concrete instead of floor joists for the above grade home? We're looking hard at ICF's, probably go with 12 inch walls. Is it just a personal choice for the roof of basement/floor of house? Our thinking presently is the concrete "box" completely below grade would serve us well for many natural threats. Mainly severe weather. Not sure if I can mention the precise company but one of the ICF manufacturers makes a product for "decks/floors/roofs". It enables tying the floor/roof directly to the walls. Reduces the amount of crete and allows longer spans without support from below. We plan on having minimal walls in the basement. Thinking maybe a recreation area down there one day. (ok I've always wanted a pool table) (-;

[StressMan79]

Well, with concrete its easier 2 do hydronic. I don't know how to form it... I'd hate to see what a 4k lb log would do to any suspended floor if it fell. 10 in is usually enough.

[Timberwolf]

I'm familliar with the icf manf that has the roof/floor system (i used their product for my basement) It's one of their commercial products. While intriguing, there are many aspects of the LHBA build that might prove challenging to adapt to the system. Plus, you don't really need the insulating properties of the icf between floors. I'm betting the cost might be spendy as heck, and once poured, you would have one heck of a time making changes; imagine after getting the roof on, you decided to change the floor plan; perfectly easy with a LHBA built home, and you need to move the basement stairs... Out comes the...concrete saw? What about the hole you had before..? Interesting idea, but i'd wait until after class before settling on that thought.

[rreidnauer]

Hmmm, I like the idea myself. As mentioned, definitely plumb for hydronic heating (even if not used) Now, if I were doing this for disaster preparedness, I would NOT have basement stairs in the home. First, it's a breech in the defense barrier, it's a risk to access, both ingress and egress, in the event of major natural disaster, (earthquake/forest fire collapsing part of your home onto the stairwell) and third, it's difficult to defend an access point above you. (those who have the high ground always maintain the advantage) Rather, I would have access from outside, through a short tunnel (outside of structure falling zone) and a formed concrete staircase to grade with bilco-like doors. If you want inside access, the most I'd do is a tapered round opening with a well reinforced "lid" to fit that opening flush to the floor, with a big piece of all-thread cast into it where a crossbar can be fitted and nuts lock it down from the inside making it impossible to remove from above. Main defense door would be at the basement wall, preferrably with some sort of gun-port to prevent someone from working on breaking through the door without you being able to put up an active defense. (btw, gun-port can be used for more than guns. Flame-throwers are an excellent deterrent and not hard to fabricate. Not many people willing to take that on, vs gunfire. :D I'd also run some remote air intakes. If you have food, water, and air, you can defend yourself practically indefinitely.

OK, sounds like crazy, paranoid thinking, but if you are going to build a saferoom, why not do it to the hilt?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[BoFuller]

I like the way you think, Rod. :)

[rocklock]

I understand the need for a safe room and the like but there are practical problems. First the running of the utilities (gas, electrical, plumbing both drainage and supply as well as ventilation) must be planned. Then access may be a problem as well as ventilation.

I have an ICF walk out basement and I have none of these problems. The simpler the solutions the better and easier the entire project will be... And 12 inch ICF's will be very pricy. You should talk to some one about icf's. Then do major planning and model building...

If I wanted a safe room, I would look into a prefab unit separate from my home...

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Well Ty first to Rod. Initially the idea was a safe room. I'd have to concur with your assessment if the basement would serve as a safe room. After some introspection, if it gets that bad, I'd not want to live like that, but I like the way you think. Rocklock, I have a call in to the company I'd like to use. I've not priced the actual ICF's yet cuz I've not spoken to them in person. Will be doing that this week. Let me preface the rest of my comments with this. We're not going to even begin moving dirt for the basement/foundation until I complete the class in March. I'm attempting to vent some of the cerebral rattling. (-; I could be wrong but 12 v 10 inch walls only require the additional cost of the crete, don't they? I mean the cost of the icf's don't change only the spacers, at least with the company I'm considering. Btw, while I"m blathering, can someone let me know if I can mention the icf company by name and not be in violation of tos? I believe at this stage we are leaning towards box in the ground. I'd still like to have a spiral stair case to our above grade log home. We'll put in a secondary entrance with wide door (yes probably concealed somewhat) to allow moving furniture into/out of basement if we do the spiral stairs inside to above grade. My biggest present conceptual concern is will I need to have interior walls in the basement, we'd like having "minimal" walls. Thus, if we go 35' X35' or 40' X 40" or even 30' X 30' for the log home, we'd have a nice large area in the basement for pool table/rec area and of course food pantry. I may even experiment with aquaponics inside with grow lights. I believe I could set up a system to grow all our vegetable needs for a family of four inside.

Yes, also the utilities routing is a concern that I'll solve with time. Our plans are very flexible. We'll end up doing what makes the best economical sense, yet have an awesome space to live a more simple life.

I've not researched hydronic much but the more I hear about it the most it intrigues me. Not certain at this point with the floor actually having icf's how to plumb for hydronics but those questions can be addressed when I speak to the company rep this week.

Thanks all for the input, as always it's very valuable.

[JJ Jr]

"aquaponics inside with grow lights"

Sounds like something that would be a mismatch with dry logs.
Of course one never knows what one intends to grow ....... lol :)

Happy New Year to all !

[Mosseyme]

We did 10" core ICF and they tried to talk us down to 8". I'm glad we did not go any bigger. Remember at least with ours that made for 15" thick walls so you are loosing 30 inches of interior if you count from the outside of the ICF.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

"aquaponics inside with grow lights"

Sounds like something that would be a mismatch with dry logs.
Of course one never knows what one intends to grow ....... lol :)

Happy New Year to all !

Well if we do the icf basement roof/log home floor, the moisture would not bother logs. Of course it'd only be the evaporation. LOL Believe me, we'd ONLY be growing vegetables and salad herbs, not anything newly made legal in Colorado or medically in California.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

We did 10" core ICF and they tried to talk us down to 8". I'm glad we did not go any bigger. Remember at least with ours that made for 15" thick walls so you are loosing 30 inches of interior if you count from the outside of the ICF.

Mosseyme, did you have an engineer attempt to talk you down to 8"? Do they understand the weight factor of a LHBA home? Also, did you do footings and floating slab for the basement floor? I'm not worried about losing interior space in the basement. We just want a storm shelter in case of severe weather and a cool in the summer warm in the winter below grade structure for "room".

[Timberwolf]

8" is plenty for walls 10ft tall and under. My PE fully understood the weight factor (similar to a masonry home, or for that matter a 2 story full ICF). Rebar placement/size and quantity is usually more of a factor.

[edkemper]

Well if we do the icf basement roof/log home floor, the moisture would not bother logs. Of course it'd only be the evaporation. LOL Believe me, we'd ONLY be growing vegetables and salad herbs, not anything newly made legal in Colorado or medically in California.

You will likely find that the amount of moisture you create in an indoor grow operation is more than you think. Mold is what results most often. Heat, moisture and limited air exchanges a challenge. As we in CA have learned with a lot of indoor grow operations in the news being busted and mold is often found. Some of the locations are rental housing and after the bust, the landlord almost has to tear the house down and rebuild because of the mold.

The cost of power for sufficient grow lights is also a huge cost. I'll spend my money to erect an outdoor greenhouse to take advantage of the limited grow season in Southeast Oregon to avoid the mold.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Oh I'm already building greenhouses and in NC the grow season will be year round. You may be right about indoor aquaponics, and my thinking there could change. Just saying we would like as much open space in the basement as possible.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Spoke with the ICF guy today on the phone. He seems to think 10 inch walls will be sufficient. I believe I'll have to wait for class to resolve that question. Will be attending a class with the ICF company two weeks after returning from Vegas and OUR class. (-: I believe my head will be on sensory overload. That's a good thing actually. Anywho, he purty much convinced me to use the icf decking product for the floor of the house. Just wondering, for those who've planned for hydronics in the floor, has anyone used pex? Also, and I may be getting ahead of myself again, given the LHBA design and our build location in NC, I probably won't have to be concerned with heat correct? Should I be exploring more "simple" ways to cool? Do our homes have a ridge vent? Sorry my retentive mind is pondering how the ridgepole is level for rafter placement from one end to the other given taper. I can envision ceiling fans moving enough air to keep cool in the summer. Right track or wrong track?

[Timberwolf]

Take the class. ;)

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Take the class. ;)

LOL Timberwolf I knew that was coming!! Is it March yet????

[Timberwolf]

LOL Timberwolf I knew that was coming!! Is it March yet????

Soon man soon.

Then you'll really have sensory overload.

[loghousenut]

Dan... Take the class and don't worry about leveling the ridgepole. You'll answer that one all by yourself three hours before it is covered in class. You'll do the "DUH" forehead slap when you realize how simple it is.

As for log home cooling, here I am in the warmest part of Oregon and I'll have no AC. Temps over 100 degrees most every summer for a week or two. We'll be fine. More on that in class.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Dan... Take the class and don't worry about leveling the ridgepole. You'll answer that one all by yourself three hours before it is covered in class. You'll do the "DUH" forehead slap when you realize how simple it is.

As for log home cooling, here I am in the warmest part of Oregon and I'll have no AC. Temps over 100 degrees most every summer for a week or two. We'll be fine. More on that in class.

Excellent to hear!! I'm just soooo eager!!

[Mosseyme]

Dan I think you said but I forget, {I'm old} where in NC are you?
No it wasn't an engineer but all the concrete and ICF people.
We really had intended to do a 12" block filled with concrete and rebar as some have done and it would have been very suffcient.
We opted for the time and ease of ICF and frankly went to 10" to have a bit more room on top of the wall to have space to run the flooring under the 30" base logs
and have room to catch the sill plate.
We do have footers 14" x 26" and we will have the floating slab when the weather warms a bit.
I hear you about the stormshelter. I have considered pouring a concrete top on a small room in the basement but not the whole roof/floor.
We plan to have a walk in cooler and it could double as a storm/shelter. Tornados don't last more than about 42 1/2 seconds give or take a minute or two, so it is not like you have to have a place big enough to live in unless you are on the coast and then I wouldn't want to have to ride out a big storm where the water might gather.
While living in OK we spent an afternoon or 2 in a swimming pool that they had built a concrete cover on for a storm shelter. Actually I spent the time outside by the door because people in side got nervous and started lighting up so I decided to take my chances with the tornado just close enough to duck in if it did come down on us.
Remember we feel for you, we have all been there, hang on and don't make any big decisions until after the class. Think and dream but read and read. Planning is just so much wasted time until you really know what to plan for. As for the ICF, if I saw a funnel coming I would head for the ICF basement and hunker down in a corner even with no door, window, or roof.
PS
My ICF comes in 8'x18" panels, 12 sf of wall with each panel. It also has plactic clips that lock it together with the next level, pretty cool stuff. We could have put it up and braced it in 1 day if we had planned a little better and had everything we needed on site before we started. You will be amazed at how fast a wall forms up.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Mosseyme, yeah we're going to be building in Rutherford County, outside of Lake Lure. Our property is in Union Mills township, but it's really just out in the country. Bridgett will be about 15 mins from us. You are correct and one thing I've garnered reading here is nothing will be done until I finish the class in March. I'm brainstorming atm. I spoke with the ICF rep yesterday and will be taking their class in mid March, a couple of weeks after I take our class. The ICF class is held in a large auditorium type room and they build forms, everything but the mud. The rep explained a lot about the compressive carrying capacity of concrete. I do plan on setting the icf's myself, well ok maybe with some help (-; but as a DIY so to speak.

There is a method to my madness. Part of the reason we'd like to finish the basement/foundation as soon after taking our class is due to being able to establish an address for my wife's work. To make a long story short she is paid a per diem based on having a home more than 100 miles from her worksite. We have a home in Florida we'd like to sell. If we were able to sell it now we'd lose the per diem. Anywho, we'll use the basement for storage and potentially my "living" in it while I build our log dream home. Then again I may end up living in the "test" structure I'll build after the class. As many here say its all flexible presently. I'm simply putting together the "big view" roadmap.

Thanks to all for tolerating me and your input. It's more valuable than you know!

[panderson03]

its not 'tolerating', dan. you already feel like one of us!

[Mosseyme]

Dan, sent you a PM with some info you should look at.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Dan, sent you a PM with some info you should look at.

Ty ty I did and I am soooooo looking forward to March. The class is like waiting for Christmas! This is going to be a wonderful year and a wonderful journey!

[edkemper]

Just between us <wink> Santa Claus only lasted a few years. Our houses will last much longer. After recovering from the class is when the real fun starts.

[LogHomeFeverDan]

LOL I like the phrase "after recovering from the class". Knowing myself, the eagerness to begin will be even more accentuated after class. Whenever I'm driving I'm constantly "distracted" by .....lol trees!! There's one near the house here in Hartsville, SC that would give LHN's ridge pole a run for the money. It's down too.... lol I may sneak up there and see if they cut it or it fell from a storm. I must admit, I can't recall ever wanting to go for a walk in the woods and not even think about hunting, just wanting to see "potential" logs for the house! Am I losing it?? I keep wanting to stop the logging trucks and ask them, "hey what would it run to have you haul those up to NC near Lake Lure?"

[BoFuller]

After recovering from the class is when the real fun starts.

When do you recover from class. It's been 2 years now and I don't think I have "recovered" yet. What are the symptoms of this strange malady "recovery"? :)

[LogHomeFeverDan]

When do you recover from class. It's been 2 years now and I don't think I have "recovered" yet. What are the symptoms of this strange malady "recovery"? :)


Me thinks it's one of those conditions from which you'd rather NOT recover. :cool:

[edkemper]

I was referring to the exhaustion of the weekend. That's when the mind hit a third digit and hasn't slowed since.

[BoFuller]

Just giving ya a hard tme Ed.

I know what ya meant. :)

[LogHomeFeverDan]

I was referring to the exhaustion of the weekend. That's when the mind hit a third digit and hasn't slowed since.

I'm hoping I'll be exhausted but still mach 2 with hair on fire!

[Grey Knight NFO]

Pulling this thread back to foundations... I've seen a ton of stuff on here about the goodness of ICF for foundations. I just ran across something called Thermomass, which looks like it is patented and more proprietary than an Apple computer. Anyway, it sandwiches rigid foam between layers of concrete, instead of using the insulation as a form for the concrete. Is anyone here, (maybe rreidnaur, or another engineer) familiar with it enough to speak about it? It seems to be a bit more work to pour, (but certainly doable), than ICF, and it's supposedly able to last for centuries, since the insulation is protected by the concrete. I wasn't impressed with the use of fiberglass instead of rebar. Perhaps if rebar is used to tie the two layers of cement together, instead of the fiberglass, it would be different enough to be eligible for an opensource hack. Anyway, is this foundation suitable for a log home? (without getting into the stuff that I'll learn in the class) (Can't wait till I get the opportunity to attend. Please pray that my orders to San Diego get processed and I am able to work out the logistics for my wife and I to make it over the Laborday weekend.)

Thanks

GKN

WH6DUJ/NNN0KVP

[rreidnauer]

Hey look! I made honorary engineer status again. One of these days, they are just going to have to mail me my license. :-)

I looked over the system they have. It looks a lot like a cast-in-place version of Superior Walls. (a system I would not use for LHBA method of building) My biggest worry in the Thermomass system is shearing forces between the concrete layers from soil backfill loads applied against the walls. There is a potential of deformation of the concrete ties within the foam core, which would compromise some of the wall's resistance to flexing, especially mid-span between corners. Further, trying to compensate for the potential flexing with rebar reinforcement in the relatively thin layers of concrete won't have the same effect that it would in a thicker slab. Much flexing resistance would increase by putting in the first floor before backfilling, just as is done in concrete block construction.

Looks like an OK system for lightweight construction and above ground wall systems, but I'd be hesitant to utilize for full basements, especially with the weight factor of an LHBA home sitting on top.

[Grey Knight NFO]

rreidnauer, thanks for the gouge. You might not have a PE behind your name, but your advice on this board has been spot on, and insightful.

GKN

WH6DUJ/NNN0KVP

[loghousenut]

Rod's a pretty good DR also. He once gave me a gallon of a special cure to get rid of a boil I'd developed from too much truck driving. It dried up the boil and got me back to work in no time, and I have been using the leftovers as starting fluid when the Boss is not feeling the proper amount of romance.

[rreidnauer]

I . . . I don't even know how to respond to that . . . .

[rockinlog]

Rod's a pretty good DR also. He once gave me a gallon of a special cure to get rid of a boil I'd developed from too much truck driving. It dried up the boil and got me back to work in no time, and I have been using the leftovers as starting fluid when the Boss is not feeling the proper amount of romance.
so your saying it's an all purpose elixir! i hope its non'toxic lol

[rckclmbr428]

The show moonshiners is filmed in my County.... Just saying