One disadvantage to living in the forest in a wood house

[lilbluehonda]

**********

[StressMan79]

what am I missing?

[rckclmbr428]

on the west coast, deciduous trees on the east coast dont burn like that

[rawson]

"AKA", fire storm, almost impossible to contain/control in the right conditions. Viewing all the home sites tucked away in heavily thick timbered areas that are not managed thinned or controlled burned before Nature gets it done its a matter of time. I'm content living in the foothill sparsely timbered grassland zone, which is grazed or hayed by ranchers. With a fifteen mile buffer zone to the heavy timbered mountains.

[panderson03]

actually full log homes don't burn nearly as easily as stick build!

[rawson]

Having a log home or stick built, a fire storm would not be a good experience.

[Blondie]

oh yes, At one point this summer there were seven such fires burning in this state with But even a thick walled rock house with a metal roof withstands a fire storm. The old steps of no folage within 50 ft and plowing a perimeter works well with a fire that creates its own wind and climate. One thing that might help is enough available water at enough pressure. Keep the folage wet enough that it does not burn easily or more slowly. There is a kind of brush that is "fire proof."

Blondie

[edkemper]

Born and bred in Los Angeles. Lived for a decade or more in Malibu Canyon. Ever hear of the firestorms that go through that area about every 4 years? You don't need big trees to have a firestorm. Just good fuel. Southern CA fires are famous. Mostly caused by firebugs and what is called the Santa Ana winds. Nothing protects a home more than a defensible space between the fire fuel and your home. (My brother retired from CalFire)

Now I live in Northern CA and we have more trees in the sierras. They burn often.

[JeffandSara]

Stay safe up there, lilbluehonda. Hope you don't have any trouble on that pretty property of yours!


Nothing protects a home more than a defensible space between the fire fuel and your home.

Absolutely true, Ed, and panderson's correct, too.

Last time we had a horrible brushfire and were asked to evacuate, we didn't leave, and the CalFire and out-of-county fire guys protecting the surrounding areas all said that they were definitely bivouacking in our house with us if there was a burn-over. They knew it would be the safest place to be in the area.

Sara :)

[edkemper]

Sara,

Every time we had a fire come through the Santa Susanna mountains, the highway patrol would block off our offramp of the freeway (Malibu Canyon). We'd drive around them to get to our house to protect it. Never lost one single structure because of the volunteers.

A friend in Box Canyon almost lost his life when he stayed to protect his place. Still has a few scars to show. Fire is a monster.

[edkemper]

I'd also like to remind that after Katrina, the CA highway Patrol went to New Orleans to help. They, without authority by anyone there, searched every single house they came to and confiscated every weapon in every house. Every single gun disappeared and were never seen again. Makes one wonder what else disappeared.

[JeffandSara]

Hi, Ed--

Whether or not to stay and defend your home is always a tricky decision which has to be made with care and realism, and staying is never without risk. Sorry to hear about your friend who got caught in a fire at his home. You're absolutely right. Wildfire is a scary proposition.

I personally disagree with local authorities trying to insist you leave, but if you stay after an evacuation has been called, you have to figure you're on your own. It's not right for you to change your mind and put emergency personnel in danger saving your bacon because you got in over your head. When the evacuation order comes, you need to be ready to "fish or cut bait", and stick to your decision.

That said, there's lots of good data to support the results you had in the Santa Susanas, where homeowners helping with defense has consistently meant less loss of property. Jeff's a professional and has protected many other people's homes from wildfires, so he's seen the question from both sides. For most people, it's probably best to pack up the family, the pets and the photo albums and head out... but it's not right for every situation.

And, as for the Katrina story, some neighbors staying in an evacuated neighborhood certainly puts a little more damper on the possibility of looting of the homes of folks who decide they're better off clearing out. We definitely kept our eyes on our neighbors' homes while they were evacuated.

Fire season's only just beginning in most of the west. Be careful out there, everybody! Sara

[chazers18]

Hi, Ed--

Whether or not to stay and defend your home is always a tricky decision which has to be made with care and realism, and staying is never without risk. Sorry to hear about your friend who got caught in a fire at his home. You're absolutely right. Wildfire is a scary proposition.

I personally disagree with local authorities trying to insist you leave, but if you stay after an evacuation has been called, you have to figure you're on your own. It's not right for you to change your mind and put emergency personnel in danger saving your bacon because you got in over your head. When the evacuation order comes, you need to be ready to "fish or cut bait", and stick to your decision.


I agree with you 101% about the when you disregard emergency personnel advice on evac, that is the verbal waiver you just signed by driving past them.
I am just a central WI guy who has little professional training in fire fighting but more then enough personal expercience with it, living on the farm we had opportunitys to learn.

As far at the Cali officers taking guns from houses, wow, never in this state. granted we have our problems we do still get to keep our guns and in the event of a B/E we can claim the Castle Grounds when we use them.

[loghousenut]

Have some close friends who stayed through the Biscuit Fire here in southern Oregon. Out of a little group of 10 or 12 homes (18 miles down a forest service road) they were the only ones who stayed.

They started out trying to fight little spot fires around the neighbors places and then concentrated on their own place. The helicopters stopped dropping water when the second propane tank exploded (shrapnel) and that's when things got hairy. They ended up in the middle of the 40 acre meadow, with sprinklers going, huddled under wet tarps.

All of their water is gravity fed so they didn't have to worry about pumps and generators, but the fire finally burned a section of pipe and all those sprinklers gave up. They only had about 5 minutes of the nastiest stuff, knowing they were slowly dying, with no water spraying on them and big chunks of burning debris everywhere.

In the end, they saved their home and most of the outbuildings. Every pile of firewood and all that lumber down by the sawmill was gone and the woods were leveled. Of the rest of the homes and cabins in that little spot, all of them that had been shady little gems tucked away in the trees were gone.

Our friends are adamant that they would never do it again and, while they hate talking about that day, they harp and harp on all the rest of us to evacuate at the first opportunity.

In the aftermath, they had the property logged and mad a ton of bucks from it. The area is coming back nicely and, in many ways, is prettier and more "user friendly" now. We went on a 30 mile hike through the area and I was surprised that I mostly liked hiking it more after the fire, than 25 years ago. Better views, more wildlife, tons of edible plants now. Shame those fires have to happen and a shame folks (like us) who live in the woods sometimes loose everything... But then again, if the family walks away, they haven't really lost everything, have they?

[rawson]

An update on the fire news: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/14/13278063-firefighter-killed-as-wildfires-rage-across-the-west-destroying-dozens-of-homes?lite.

The air is getting smoky in this zone, the article makes mention of a fire growing from a few thousand acres to over 27,000 in a matter of hours, that is the kind of fire a person cannot out run. During my outings in the mountains here you can see the conditions are there in vast areas for fire as the forests are so over grown with dead fall piled up it is almost impossible to get through it.

[edkemper]

With the Santa Susanna fires, there is a county sheriff (neighbor and friend) who will never forget me. He and his family were on vacation one year when the fire came through. When they returned, they found me and my friend on his roof, the fire had just passed within 30 feet of their house and it remained undamaged.

We live on top of some hills. After the fire passed us we worked our way down the hill chasing the fire and rescuing homes in danger. Once it crossed the 101 freeway, it was out of our hands. We also used to go check on Buddy Ebsen's place near by. He was frequently gone and his wife would be at their place alone. Never lost his place either.

As for assuming responsibility once you refuse to leave or pass them at the freeway offramp, it may also be the only chance to save your house. Fire fighters have a lot more to worry about than my house. Those that needed to, left. Those that were willing, stayed. Again, never lost a life or structure.

[panderson03]

With the Santa Susanna fires, there is a county sheriff (neighbor and friend) who will never forget me. He and his family were on vacation one year when the fire came through. When they returned, they found me and my friend on his roof, the fire had just passed within 30 feet of their house and it remained undamaged.

We live on top of some hills. After the fire passed us we worked our way down the hill chasing the fire and rescuing homes in danger. Once it crossed the 101 freeway, it was out of our hands. We also used to go check on Buddy Ebsen's place near by. He was frequently gone and his wife would be at their place alone. Never lost his place either.

Mr. Ed, you're a hero.

[exsailor]

I'd also like to remind that after Katrina, the CA highway Patrol went to New Orleans to help. They, without authority by anyone there, searched every single house they came to and confiscated every weapon in every house. Every single gun disappeared and were never seen again. Makes one wonder what else disappeared.

The US Army and National Guard were used as well in the search and confiscation of firearms. If a house was occupied it was entered and searched. It was entered forcibly if entrance was denied. Firearms were confiscated. If you resisted you were met with force and they were taken. The justification was: idiots were firing of the relief helicopters. I did hear later some guns were recovered by their owners, but that situation was different from bugging out in a fire evacuation. Recently in Colorado after evacuations, steps were taken to prevent looters from coming in after the evacuations. Being prepared for a fire should be a personal as well as a financial consideration. Keeping the underbrush under control on your property and a clear ground fire boundary, could be part of your landscaping. If an immediate threat from fire happens a freshly plowed fire barrier would hurt either, just one more reason for a tractor. As said previous staying or bugging out is your choice, but be prepared to deal with the consequences. It is a pity when rescue personnel have to risk their life, saving people that don't know what they are doing and make foolish choices.

[edkemper]

Mr. Ed, you're a hero.

Reserve that handle for our troops. But thank you.

[edkemper]

exsailor,

This may get this conversation locked but I have to respond.

> If a house was occupied it was entered and searched.

A problem if the occupants were legal owners and/or tenants that hadn't committed a crime.

> It was entered forcibly if entrance was denied. Firearms were confiscated.

A further problem? No crime committed but personal property was stolen by those who are charged with enforcing the laws and protecting our rights. Doesn't matter who stole the property. It's still stolen.

> If you resisted you were met with force and they were taken.

And then they left. Leaving no protection for anyone left behind. Law enforcement disappeared without offering any protection. Is this really the job of law enforcement?

> The justification was: idiots were firing of the relief helicopters.

I wonder if they were firing at them to do them harm or were they firing a "report" to get attention for emergency needs? Not to be confused with LEO firing shots at unarmed private citizens in crisis to keep them from getting any help? Further threatening those same people with death if they didn't turn around and leave without any help. They were uniformed officers threatening citizens in an emergency. There were plenty of illegal activities on both sides. The difference being, LEO had their guns to protect themselves and left everyone else to protect themselves with good intentions.

Confiscating personal property without just compensation is and has always been a crime. That is what started the Civil War.

> Recently in Colorado after fire evacuations, steps were taken to prevent looters from coming in after the evacuations.

An LEO problem for sure. If they make you leave, they have a responsibility to protect what is left behind, to some degree. Not necessarily from the fire but from looters.

> As said previous staying or bugging out is your choice, but be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Agreed. On the other hand, if we leave and our home disappears, we have to be equally prepared to deal with those consequences.

> It is a pity when rescue personnel have to risk their life, saving people that don't know what they are doing and make foolish choices.

Yet that is their job.

It's even worse when rescue personnel die when a little community help might have made all the difference. When a fireman and I were pinned against a fence with the fire at our toes, neither one of us cared who we were, just that we kept the hoses pointed in the same direction as the fire. When a local sheriff's helicopter fell from the sky, it was civilians that kept the injured officers alive until the pros got there. The civilians didn't shy away because they didn't have rubber gloves either. Remember, those rescue personnel are you and me. Regular men and women. They are not superheroes. However they are brave, hard working men and woman. They also have just as many criminals in their ranks as society does. They are us.

We should remember, those rescue personnel are still more likely to die driving to and from their station than from dying on the job. "We" need to protect our employees, however we should never give up our Civil Rights.

[chazers18]

It's even worse when rescue personnel die when a little community help might have made all the difference. When a fireman and I were pinned against a fence with the fire at our toes, neither one of us cared who we were, just that we kept the hoses pointed in the same direction as the fire. When a local sheriff's helicopter fell from the sky, it was civilians that kept the injured officers alive until the pros got there. The civilians didn't shy away because they didn't have rubber gloves either. Remember, those rescue personnel are you and me. Regular men and women. They are not superheroes. However they are brave, hard working men and woman. They also have just as many criminals in their ranks as society does. They are us.





I speak for my self--
I can not thank you enough for that comment I wanted to say that but i couldn't put it in words.

[Vern Street]

Greetings and prayers for everyone who are in a fire zone right now! We experienced a small wildfire in January of 2008, while we were still building our home here in Oklahoma. That was bad enough... However, two weeks ago today, a huge wildfire was started that made 2008 look like a campfire. 58,000 acres scorched and 383 homes lost in our county alone. 24 hours after the fire had started, we got the word to evacuate as it had jumped the highway and was headed our way. We had taken all the precautions but we are in extreme drought conditions, so the fire was moving rapidly. We loaded the car and chose to wait - we are on a paved county road, so 100 yards to the highway and we were out. The officials did their best to convince us to leave, but Vern told them that he build this house and he deserved to watch it burn, if necessary. We also knew from the events the day before, that once you left the area, they were NOT letting anyone back into the fire zone. (And as it turned out, it was three days before they let folks back in!) We had a 100 yard buffer zone with no trees, and had the water sprinklers going on that. The fireline came right up to the county road on the west side of our property (about 200 yds.) before the Army helicopters arrived to drop buckets of water and stop it.

The fire was stopped at the road, but later that evening, a hot spot rekindled and another neighbor's home was threatened. He was in the hospital and his wife had evacuated, so Vern and other neighbors were able to save them. (If we had evacuated, that wouldn't have happened! There were so many houses threatened that the officials were overwhelmed, and basically trying to stop the overall advancement of the fire - not individual homes.)

It's not an experience that I ever want to go through again, but I'm thankful that we live in an area that is easy to evacuate. The threat is not over, but we are predicted to have cooler temperatures this week, so that helps! The temperature on the day of the fires was 115 degrees, with a strong southwest wind!

Prayers for everyone!
Sara Street
Creek County, Oklahoma

[panderson03]

so glad you're safe and your home is safe!!
thanks for checking in. we've been worried about you!

[rreidnauer]

I know this product was mentioned long ago, so perhaps it's a good time to refresh the memories of some, and reintroduce it to others.

Barricade Fire Gel (http://www.firegel.com/)

[JeffandSara]

Hey, there, Sara--

Friends and family in OK were keeping us up-to-date on the fires near you. There were some wild photos of some of the destruction and fire action there. We had one family of relatives (the ones nearest you) evacuated, but their home stayed safe, thankfully. We're so happy to hear that you folks, your neighbors, and your lovely home are safe for now, and that you and the neighbors were able to protect the other couple's house. How horrible would it have been for them to lose the house when he was in the hospital.

You bring up some other important points about evacuating. Once you leave, you're NOT going back. If you're far from a main road and/or the fire's that direction, that's a consideration, too.

As we've heard from all the stories, there's no "right" answer to what you ought to do in that situation. If nothing else, though, any of us in wildfire country do need to have thought through what our priorities and considerations would be for that eventuality. All the practical pre-fire preparations like water tanks, brush clearance, etc., are also super-important.

Take care, everybody! (The other) Sara :D

[Mosseyme]

So glad you are safe and your home as well. Hope that continues to be.

[LogSurfer2]

I am at a loss for words.....many of you here have been through some extraordinary experiences, and I am grateful to hear from both sides of the argument for & against staying at your home during fire risk! You have all convinced me that the first line of defense is defensible space!

Rod - Thanks so much for re-posting about the Barricade Fire Blocking Gel....amazing! I had never heard about this product, but can see its value and perhaps someday we will be looking into it again for our own home protection.

Thanks LilBlue for starting an important post....

[Ellsworth]

The Colorado State University and Firewise released a publication with good information on using home design and landscaping to reduce the risk of a wild fire damaging your home..
http://csfs.colostate.edu/pdfs/construction_booklet.pdf
Worth a look imho if you're building in an area that might experience a forest fire.

[exsailor]

I know this product was mentioned long ago, so perhaps it's a good time to refresh the memories of some, and reintroduce it to others.

Barricade Fire Gel (http://www.firegel.com/)

Can't say I have ever heard of this stuff, but after visiting the website it sure looks effective.

[lilbluehonda]

**********

[loghousenut]

Diaper jelly... What a concept!

[Ellsworth]

They just published the cause of the Taylor Bridge fire... cutting rebar with a chop saw.

http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2012/12/taylor-bridge-wildfire-started-by-construction-work-at-the-bridge/

The investigation found the fire was caused by humans, most likely by a worker using a power saw to cut rebar and a second worker welding under the bridge

[AkChas]

Rod's got just the answer for elimination of the chop-saw-fire-hazard. Can't find the post/video right now though.
Rod.......?

[rreidnauer]

Rod's got just the answer for elimination of the chop-saw-fire-hazard. Can't find the post/video right now though.
Rod.......?

Links to my videos are not posted anywhere on the public side, please keep it that way.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[AkChas]

Yup, didn't notice which forum I was on. Sorry Rod. No foul / No harm done.
Aaaaaaanyway -- as per my original intended point -- using a manual rebar cutter cuts the possibilty of spark-induced fire to....zero.

1085

[rreidnauer]

No prob Chas. Just wanted to nip it in the bud before it went any further. :)

I just read the story, and it starts off sounding real bad for the construction company in regards to liability, as they were prohibited from using that equipment at the time, but then I read this paragraph:

The fire began on a hot summer day. Due to the fire risk, a Level 3 fire precaution took affect at 1 p.m. that day, according to the report. Under that rule, welding and the use of power saws were both prohibited at the site.
It instantly brought the question to mind, "Who issues the rule, and were the workers using the equipment informed of the rule going into effect?" The fire started sometime within 19 minutes of the order being issued. The whole thing sounds like either a CYA thing, or classic blame game. Probably both.

However, maybe the rule automatically happens, like at 1PM any day it is above a certain temp and wind speed. I just don't know. But if it was that way, just imagine the bureaucracy of trying to figure out when those conditions are present. Where is the wind/temp readings taken? How large is the blanket of effect from a given point of reading? What if you had a gust after long periods of relative calm? What margin of safety does one use? You can imagine the difficulty of trying to figure out if you are or are not under rule of an automatic rule. Again, it would look like a way to just have a formal path of blame.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[StressMan79]

aha...

I know a thing or two about fire protection regs. The fire marshal of the county/area declares "burn bans" etc. they base the call on experince. I don't think there is an "automatic" rule, unless they adopt one. They take into account lots of factors, like (forcast) temp, humidity, species of and moisture in the trees and bushes around them...

Anyway, I don't think it is "automatic", and I don't know what number you apply the "safety factor" to. But I did read that the government is spending a boatload of money to come up with a "scientific" rating system that can be used across species, etc. Google it.

-Peter

[rawson]

One thing is certain if the fire originates on your property that owner is liable if it spreads, however if the fire starts on Gov., land then no liability.

[rreidnauer]

One thing is certain if the fire originates on your property that owner is liable if it spreads, however if the fire starts on Gov., land then no liability.

Unless it's a private contractor hired by the gov't, not? I know here in Pennsylvania, most, if not all, large DOT jobs are subcontracted to private corporations now-a-days. Seems an easy way to point blame when something goes awry and generate revenue, even if only to help pay for damages.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

[rawson]

Unless it's a private contractor hired by the gov't, not? I know here in Pennsylvania, most, if not all, large DOT jobs are subcontracted to private corporations now-a-days. Seems an easy way to point blame when something goes awry and generate revenue, even if only to help pay for damages.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using TapaTalk 2

No doubt about it that contractor has put up bid bonds, performance bonds, proof of insurance ect, all held by the entity before any work is started any fires or other unforeseen disasters that contractor will take the hit but not the gov., one reason why these government contract work costs are expensive.

Oh well as this is 12/20/12 and the world might end tomorrow then who pays for that?