total newbie needing help with BASIC questions

[dan_fash]

Hello all,
I've been dreaing of building a log home for years, and I am finally at the place where I think it may be possible. Like everyone else, I'm sure, I want to know all I can before I jump in, so I'm on a huge quest for knowledge. I have a basic question about the class.....I've researched almost every style of log home I can find, and generally, I like to look of traditional scandanavian fully scribed, non chinked homes. should I still take the LHBA class? will my mind be changed? will I only learn butt and pass, chinked style of building. Please understand, I'm not down on butt and pass. I have heard a lot of the argument for chinking and also for full scribed. I just like the full scribed appearence. so, help please. am I in the right place here, or no?

I appreciate all opinions and responses. I even promise to listen if you have info that may swing me toward chinked vs scribed :)

BTW, I have tons of questions to follow too, but this seems like a good place to start.

Dan

[rckclmbr428]

I really like the look of lamborghinis, but i'd rather have a diesel truck. Actually my wallet dictates it. Scandanavian chinkless homes are beautiful, but they are also very expensive and time consuming. In the amount of time it would take to full scribe the logs for a home, you could be finished and living in a butt and pass home.

[blane]

The butt and pass method of building is something that is easy for a novice to do who has no experience, and not to mention the quality of construction can't be beat. I would say if you took the class you would change your mind on the methods of construction for several reasons.
1. Issues to do with settling.
2. Longevity of a whole log verses a milled log.
3. Rot
4. Price

The list goes on.

[Basil]

I took the class from skip, in his house, so I don't know how things are done now. But he showed us the basic technique for the chinkless styles. We didn't spend hours and weeks learning all the intricate details and tricks, just the basics. It was mostly to show us why he preferred the butt-and-pass style, which had to do with settling and labor. He felt that in order to teach people to live simply, and debt free, a style of home that didn't require a crew of people and tons of training was ideal. I think you would still gain from the class, but if you REALLY want to build chinkless style, I think you will learn more from one of the classes where you bring your tools and do about a six week course in hands-on training

[loghousenut]

Like Basil, I took the class years ago from Skip. Like you, Dan, I went into class thinking that Scandinavian chinkless was the only way to build a log home.

Around noon of the first day of class I found myself thinking "I wish he'd shut up about all these other ways of building and get on with this butt n pass thing!".

Since then I have built a notched and chinked cabin as well as a few butt and pass buildings. We are now building our dream home and it is butt and pass just like Skip said it would be.

The smart money will bet that you will lose interest in Scandinavian chinkless after going to class.

[rreidnauer]

I agree with Basil's statement/advice in it's entirety.

[FishingAddict]

Having not attending the class but reading all here I'd concur mostly with Basil and the others. That said I know many who have attended anywhere from the 2 to 6 week classes where they taught chinkless Swiss cope methods and went out and built beautiful places when done. I suspect it's more work (?), maybe not so much one once one masters the thing, and they managed to build beautiful places after the classes they took too.
Suppose it boils down to what floats your boat look wise more than anything else. The water, septic,and other issues obviously the same.

Was just up in northern MN this week chasing____ fish! Imagine that eh! I saw some very "old school" cabins that were more than 120 years old still standing strong. Some were cope, some were round logs and had squared ends that were pegged (don't know what that style is called).....all were cool as heck.
An old place has that smell that says "aged and strong and wise". Got to love an old log cabin no matter what the build method was....that cool factor is built in.

[StewartK]

There are only two types of log homes in this world: log homes that are chinked, and log homes that will someday be chinked.

A hundred years ago they could build chinkless because they were building with old growth timber. With the new growth wood you can buy today, you will be lucky to live in it 2-3 years before it warps enough to need chinking. Check out this thread

http://community.loghomebuilders.org/showthread.php?7334-Chinking-a-Chinkless-Cabin

Or find a log home restoration expert and ask them about problems with modern Scandinavian chinkless homes. I'm sure they'll give you an ear full.

[RPM]

Welcome Dan! Hope you find your new home here. I can relate to your love of the chinkless homes. We originally liked the chinkless, scribed homes as well. After spending a year here before taking the class and reading all there is and gleaming from the wisdom of so many members, I was easily persuaded to the butt and pass method. There are many reasons why, and yes, when you take the class, you'll learn all of them. Cost, maintenance, ease of construction, etc. The list goes on. Spend some time around here before you decide. If the chinkless, scribed homes is still what you love, after you've learned all you can about the butt and pass, then build the home you want. You're the one who is going to live in it and pay for it. There are many ways to build a log home. We're sold on the butt and pass and that's what we're building. Oh, and by the way, ask all the questions you want. That's what the LHBA family is here for. But just know, sometimes the answer you'll get is....."Take the class". We'll tell you that on occasion, not because we're trying to "push" the class, but because the class will give you clear direction, explain why we do what we do AND inspire you on what YOU can do in building you're own home! It will change you, guaranteed!

[Yuhjn]

Doing a scribe correctly takes a great deal of skill and a great deal of time. Doing BnP is straight forward and can be done correctly by anyone.

[loghousenut]

Dan,

A long time ago a guy named Skip Ellsworth started promoting a building method that allowed folks to build their own log home with their own hands.

Nothing wrong with wanting the newest Lamborghini and nothing wrong with wanting your own Scandinavian chinkless log home. Both have two problems... Initial cost and cost of upkeep over the years.

Most of us who have responded to your initial post are building our own log home. Most of us will own it free and clear when we are done. Most of us will build the kind of home that will make you say "WOW" when you walk in the front door.

Ready when you are....

[hammerhead 67]

Dan,
I love the look of the SCL homes too. If you are completely sold on the SCL look, do yourself a favor and build a practice shed/dog house/barn first. Something small scale. Then build the same thing B & P style.

The labor and $ savings of B & P far far outweighed the aesthetic SCL style. We are building B &P and the extra money and labor I will save on the shell will be put toward artistic touches like custom stair rails, hand done wood floors with decorative inlays, and a Ridgepole made from a really cool tree that looks like it grows up through the roof.

[Gomer]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/06/05/wander-mn-finnish-history-in-embarrass/

another flavor I guess...125 years plus

[rocklock]

I have several discussion with folks that have built or lived in nonchinked homes. They dont or won't believe that my home doesn't shrink. I have over 900 pieces of steel in my home. I sheet rocked the down stairs bathrooms 3 years ago. The sheet rock is just under the 9 th row of logs. If my log wall shrink even a little, the sheet rock would crumble. It hasn't.
I have told the story of a guy that built his log home 38 years ago. Five years ago he rebuilt his stair for the third time. He has a coped home.
There are many stories of folks lowering roofs. That is just crazy. My roof is firmly attached and will not leak for many years.
Finally, the thermal properties of big logs are simply amazing. My second story is about 6 to 8 degrees warmer that the first floor. If I get cold I simply go up stairs. Our nights are in the lower 50's and with no heat when I wake in the morning it's about 70 degrees upstairs.
Life is good in my log home.

[dvb]

Dan,
You have not replied after your initial post so I assume you know by now that if you are set on a chinkless home you are probably on the wrong forum. If you are still trying to make up your mind, there is a lot of good info on these forums and the class is priceless if you build a B-N-P home on your own. I really like chink lines and so this is the place for me.

[dvb]

Dan,
You have not replied after your initial post so I assume you know by now that if you are set on a chinkless home you are probably on the wrong forum. If you are still trying to make up your mind, there is a lot of good info on these forums and the class is priceless if you build a B-N-P home on your own. I really like chink lines and so this is the place for me.

[Rob in MN]

I imagine that a well built chinkless doesn't settle much more than any well built B&P or probably any structure using the assumption they all are built on stable foundation and built well. Basing this on the fact here in Minnesota we still have 100 - 150 year old log homes standing tall yet today. What I see always done here in pics is the roof line is extended well beyond the log walls/ The old log places in region here that stand solid shared this trait and those that didn't are usually a mess or gone. My family had one built in 1857-58 near Morton, MN that tragicly burned down in mid-60s. Dumb kids and a book of matches. Please do not ask how I know. Never will forgive myself for that one.
It was a tightly formed place and around 28' sq or near that and had a half loft. Cool beyond words and walls inscribed with stuff by generations who lived there. The foundation was large rocks - cannot imagine how long it took them to get all leveled...huge boulders.. They did and a marble rolled was always true.
If I can create something remotely all timeless and cool maybe I can do my part in starting a new tradition and family legacy.

[Timberwolf]

Rob, any chinkless cabin will settle WAY more than a tight-pinned B&P.

[loghousenut]

Rob, Ditto, in spades, what Timberwolf said.

The settling we are talking about is not foundation settling but rather the settling that makes the walls get shorter as the logs shrink. All notched log walls settle whether chinkless or chinked. It's just how it has to be. Our logs shrink but the walls do not settle and get shorter. We have no need for screw jacks under our upright posts, or settling space over doors and windows.

We can set our window and doors with NO settling space in walls made of green logs and there will never be a bind or broken pane. It simplifies things and it is one of the aspects of the LHBA that makes it so attractive and "do-able" to owner builders. It works!

[Rob in MN]

I understand the settling you were too of the logs. vs foundation but meant that a foundation can also serve to stabilize many types of builds that are not non-pinned per se.
The below place had 7 variations of log home builds - they were moved and the old foundations placed underneath, rock by rock mostly.
They may have been some of the best built homes of the 1840-1860 era but they alive and well and occupied/used year round.
If you live in Minnesota or close this place is a must see. One weekend it's only open to public each year sadly ....... a true treasure. Unless you getting married --- then the church etc accessed year round.

http://www.littleloghouseshow.com/index.php?page=about-the-village

[edkemper]

Rob,

Not knowing much about how we build and how it is different from the rest is why you don't understand. Trust us, we totally understand. We were where you are not that long ago.

Just because someone claims there are WMDs doesn't make them right automatically. Know what I mean? <smile>

[Rob in MN]

I need to ask this as I am perplexed I guess .... is everyone here saying that only the Butt and Pass doesn't not shift? I'm seriously asking as I looked close, poked around, talked to many whom are involved with this farm and saw what I saw with my own eyes what was there - am I missing something?

[panderson03]

there's no settling issues with the way we build because of all the steel in the walls and the fact that logs shrink toward their centers. sure, our logs will shrink just like everyone elses, but because we're building 'tightly pinned butt and pass', the steel we use to pin the logs together prevent the walls from getting shorter. does that make any sense, Rob?

[Rob in MN]

I have read this forum for years and yes, I agree it makes total sense.
Not really sure how it went down this path - what I was saying was it seems this is not the only way that a long lasting log cabim/home can be constructed and that what I have also seen is there are other methods that have lasted 150 years and more that can also. Provided they had on a solid foundation underneath and the roof over-hung enough to keep the water off the logs to prevent sogged and rotted logs over the years.
I have looked at your pics - beautiful by the way and nice nice job! - and not sure exactly where in Minnesota you are building but if you are in the Ely-Grand Rapids area you probably has seen some of the old cope style, or variations thereof, from the 1800s that still are in use today. So it's a given it can be done if done properly and maintained.
What I dig about the B&P way is the use of green logs, the speed in which it appears to be doable in vs cope or hewn, and slamming the rebar a whole lot faster and eassier than cutting wood pins thru logs. lol
I imagine a sloppy build even on a B&P could lead to issues in future too - not chinking on exterior properly and maintaing might lead to water holding there and that could not be a good thing I imagine.
In summary what I meant was there probably are many ways to skin an animal and this one to me seems to have many of the best features I have heard of or read about.
If what I was attempting to say came across different I apologize for not being clear and concise

[panderson03]

agreed Rob. other styles of building CAN last a long time. its just that they take way longer to build, or are too tough a technique for me to try and master, have flat wood against flat wood which promotes rot, or the whole settling thing. B&P was really our only viable choice.
yep I've seen those old log homes. I wonder how many logs they've had to replace or what works been done on them as far as restoration.
we have 3 old log homes on the grounds where the threshemans show is every year. they've needed a lOT of restoration over the years.
I'm not saying this it the only way to build or the only way that will last. I only know what I've seen in kit homes before. this really is the only option for us :)
glad you're here !

[Temat]

I live in a 40 year old+, Non-chinked, bark still on(inside and out), old notched and spiked(foot long steel spikes)Larch pine, log home, it's also located on a GLEN. I use a Pellet stove to heat the house and have a full basement with 1 steel beam and 1 screw support under the kitchen. The inside main walls have been insulated, tyvek'd and finished with slat board as has the ceiling, the inner room walls have all been sheet rocked.

I am happy to report there is no rot, there are no cracks and there is no settling. When bark falls off, I use a bit of Cabot's Australian timber oil to cover the spot. Inside, the bark only falls off when you touch it, generally. Now and then(on occassion but rarely) you get a bark chip that falls..

When I bought the place, I asked the previous owner, "Have you ever chinked?" He says "Chink? What's that?"

[Temat]

I live in a 40 year old+, Non-chinked, bark still on(inside and out), old notched and spiked(foot long steel spikes)Larch pine, log home, it's also located on a GLEN. I use a Pellet stove to heat the house and have a full basement with 1 steel beam and 1 screw support under the kitchen. The inside main walls have been insulated, tyvek'd and finished with slat board as has the ceiling, the inner room walls have all been sheet rocked.

I am happy to report there is no rot, there are no cracks and there is no settling. When bark falls off, I use a bit of Cabot's Australian timber oil to cover the spot. Inside, the bark only falls off when you touch it, generally. Now and then(on occassion but rarely) you get a bark chip that falls..

When I bought the place, I asked the previous owner, "Have you ever chinked?" He says "Chink? What's that?"

That being said, I've thought about having all the bark stripped off and chinking it on several occassions, but, why mess with something that aint broke?

[LogHomeFeverDan]

Dan welcome aboard! As many have said here already, there are numerous methods to build a log home. To borrow an older "NFL" slogan, "you make the call!". They all "work" or they wouldn't still be building them. The questions become, what appearance do you want for your home?, do you want to build it?, how long do you expect to take in construction?, how much do you want to maintain? You inquired, "will the class change my mind"? Don't know. If you are still truly deciding, I'm willing to bet it would. If you truly wish to build a sc home, probably not. I've never built a house. I have some basic construction experience. Personally, I'd recommend the class to ANYONE wishing to own or build a log home. If for nothing else, the education about logs and log homes. Now that I've taken the class, I am completely confident I can build our home. Not subbing everything out, I'm talking me personally. Is B & P the ONLY way to build a home? Ab so lute ly not. However, I am of the opinion, for someone who wants to build there own, it's the BEST way.