View Full Version : Solar system Upgrade
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Still in the works, once she's done everything thing will get neatly tucked away and anchored.
Four Panasonic 96 cell 335 watt mono-panels mounted on PT wood with adjustable tilt. (wired for 70v and approx 22 amps)
**I used 6 awg cables to cover the span from the combiner box at the array to the cabin = 75 feet ***
Four Battle Born lithium-ion batteries 12v 100ah wired series/parallel for 24v (using 2/0 cables) (able to keep these indoors is a huge plus!)
Outback FM 80 MPPT (wired with 6 awg) (gage size as per OB install manual)
Outback Inverter 24v/2500 watt (2/0 cables) (gage size as per PB install manual)
OB 175 vdc breaker (in large J-box) for batts to inverter ( I cut out openings to mount and later found Midnight Solar makes a great box to house a lot of breakers. busses, etc)
OB 80 amp breaker in (smaller j-box) for Battery to FM controller (as per manual)
I still have to run 6 awg solid copper wire for all my grounds (inv, cc and batts) and my 10/2 awg feed from inverter to AC panel. I already pounded in one 5/8" copper coated ground rod along cabin and another one out at my array.
Conduit gets trenched and buried in Spring (hopefully) and Honda 7000 EU will be hard-wired in as well.
Overall, it's not a big system at all, BUT it should suit my demands as I am super frugal on electrical usage. We'll soon see !
My main goal is to be able to run my pellet stove through the entire night. It's an Enviro Mini A and checkig with my Kill-O-Watt meter uses very little wattage/amps (300 to 600w) The exception is when ignitor fires up (900-1000w) but it's not hooked to a T-stat so it doesn't go on/off like that. I just set the Pelly on low and she purrs all night steady.
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simple combiner box for 4 panels, breaker and lightning arrestor as well
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I made it easily adjustable for summer/winter tilt. They'll be sonotubed cemented in place in spring. Fo now I drove in 4 foot long 5/8' rebar and anchored it down. The large gaps I left between each panel will reduce wind loads. I've been keepig my eye on it though.
sdart
01-15-2020, 06:28 AM
Couldn't see the photos in the second post. We are just putting up our solar at the moment also, so are interested to see!
donjuedo
01-15-2020, 03:58 PM
Great progress!
try again: this picture loading system is finicky, basic PITA actually try again
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^^^^^^ easy to tilt with a simple pivot set-up and 1/2"thu-bolts. I made one just by winging it and was a prototype, then made a second one and attached them.
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below is all 4 panels, 2 per mount (don;t why image its attached like it is????) but anyway I purposely left big gaps between each panel to reduce wind loads.
My combiner box for solar array. It has MP4 connectors (snap in) for 4 panels ( so actually 8 altogether, four pos and four neg) You can buy combiner boxes with as many plug-ins to suit your specif solar panels. The box also came with a lightning arrestor, on/off circuit breaker, ground lug and a decent water proof box.
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I've got it all connected and mounted out on my supports and I'll get a picture of it asap to post here.
Here's the Outback 175dc breaker that goes between my battery pos cable to my Outback inverter. Dam thing is HUGE about 8 inches long, 4 wide and 2 inches thick. I mounted it in that large grey J-box from first posted pics. OB install manual calls for this size breaker. 100 bucks too.
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is it just my PC or what? Look at all the different ways my pics are attached. ?????? SMH, I need a beer.
and it just changed...it now says "attachment" and those are the ones that don't come up.
sdart
01-16-2020, 12:21 AM
Thanks! All the photos came up except... as you know... the last one. Your setup looks a lot like ours, only the supports we built are much beefier and overbuilt (as always.) We regularly get very high winds here and are afraid the panels will catch the wind.
rreidnauer
01-16-2020, 02:42 AM
Thanks! All the photos came up except... as you know... the last one. Your setup looks a lot like ours, only the supports we built are much beefier and overbuilt (as always.) We regularly get very high winds here and are afraid the panels will catch the wind.See? You're missing an opportunity. Turn those panels into wind turbine blades. Double your output!
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mudflap
01-16-2020, 07:57 AM
sheesh, you make it look so easy, Kola!
loghousenut
01-16-2020, 08:11 AM
Koala is loaded. He just calls a guy and then sends a check.
I hear he made all his money in California.
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sdart
01-16-2020, 08:13 AM
The wind is too turbulent for small wind turbines here, Rod. Only a huge one would work and we don't want that. But we get more than enough sun to run everything we want.
Koala ?? as in Koala Bear ?? wth ! LOL ! And boy do I wish I had money to hire peeps to do this stuff, I'm getting old. Oh yeah, and another thing LHN, lol.. I didn't make any money in Californy, I made all my money here in Colorado making and moving moonshine and pretending to be a choirpractor' !
Speaking of money. I'll add up the numbers and see how much this entire solar set-up has cost me. A wild guess ? $10-12k plus another $5k for the Honda genny. That's just parts, equipment, wiring, doodads and such.
About my solar frames? I think they are very stable and we get some nasty winds up here at 9000 feet. Again large air gaps between each panel minimize things. Weather forecasts for tomorrow are 50-70 mph winds so 'll be watching - you can bet yur' britches. ( I said britches..not bitches) But....if I had to build these over again? I'd go with all metal -as Double R suggested to me (but I already was making them from wood)
Anyone can put a solar system together, it's not hard and there's plenty of GOOD information available online and in books. Knowing the dangers is key. Rod got me started and helped me along 10-12 years ago when I did my tipi living days and constructed a bare bone solar setup. Over the years I also joined a solar online forum (Outback Forum) and had lots of help from the OB staff and other experienced folks that posted there.
The cost to have it "professionally" done by a contractor/electrician (JUST labor, guessing an easy $15-30k) Maybe more. Need incentive to DIY ? There it is. And the other kicker for me? $38k to have the electric company come in and hook me onto their shitty grid. While they ruin my landscape with their ugly tarred poles. Not to mention those idiotic "smart" meters.
I'll get some more pics up and comments when done but tomorrow I start a big flooring job and that'll set me back. I'm wanting to get out of here and head to AZ for a few weeks dammit.
loghousenut
01-16-2020, 03:47 PM
Sorry Kola. That durned cell phone! Seems like the faster I type, the more the rascal edits.
And I was just funnin' about that California money.
PS... It is a perfectly lovely solar system.
Oh I know, all in fun ! ;)
recent pic of me and son :
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loghousenut
01-16-2020, 07:32 PM
You trimmed your mustache!
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LOL !
Ooops "message too short'
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Yes ! I got the solar system up and running yesterday.I missed both football games but oh well. I had some problems firing up the new inverter but got some much needed help from a good friend. ;) I'll let it take a nice full day of sun charge then put it to the test tonight,
So...on a bad note I am very displeased with the Outback inverter FXR2524. It hums loudly and since it is inside in the center of my home it can be heard everywhere. A definite transformer hum. And especially at night. I had to shut off the breaker just to sleep. 2000 bucks and a company can't make the thing quiet?I've had a cheap Xantrex inverter and a Morningstar inverter and they were silent.
So I will attempt to soundproof the area but I doubt that'll work. Only other option is to mount it under my cabin (outside) and make some type of soundproof box. I've got about 4 feet of crawl space. That's means making up more 2/0 cables and a lot of extra work. Had I known it would be noisy I would have planned things differently.
HUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rreidnauer
01-21-2020, 03:34 AM
Are you sure it's not OHMMMMMMMMM ?
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Ohmmmmm.............as in Ohms Law or for meditation purposes ? :)
Welp...the good news is that I ran my pellet stove for 17 straight hours and only used minimal voltage. You read that right. From start, batts were at 26.2v and when I shut her down (after 17 run-hours) batts read 25.8v.Shaazaaam !
I was also running my usual stuff, internet router, laptop, a few LED lights and my propane stove which vampires a little bit of juice for the control board. --- Not. Too. Shabby.
donjuedo
01-21-2020, 02:23 PM
Making it work -- Bravo!
Yes donjuedo, I'm pretty stoked.
Now if I CAN'T resolve or reduce the humming noise I'll just have to build a box outside of the cabin wall - and sound proof the sucka'
The Outback guys are trying to help me out.
It's too early to give my opinion about the Battle Born lith/ion batteries yet. But so far I'm damn impressed. I ran that pellet stove for 17 hours and it only sipped .4 volts from those batteries -- that's crazy good.
rreidnauer
01-21-2020, 06:05 PM
Just keep in mind that I think those batteries might have a pretty flat discharge voltage reading, then drop off fast near depletion. You'd have to look up what your resting voltage is, and see how far down you are to know how much you really used. An amp-hour recorder would be better still, (like the Trimetric) or your Pal monitor gizmo might have it built in already.
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I'm calling the Battle Born company today as I cant find that info anywhere online.
loghousenut
01-22-2020, 11:09 AM
Out 2,000 watt Trace inverter has sat quietly under the bed in the old bus and has never initiated a complaint from any of the many people who have slept there.
Back when that was our only source of power the cooling fan would come on while under a good heavy load. Typically that would only happen during laundry or while running the table saw or counter, etc.
I'd send it back and do a thorough search of the reviews on its replacement.
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I re-booted my entire system, shut everything down, then turned things on one at a time -trying to isolate a possible culprit. After going through everything ?
Noise gone. Unbelievable.
loghousenut
01-22-2020, 04:30 PM
That's how I woulda handled it.
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Just keep in mind that I think those batteries might have a pretty flat discharge voltage reading, then drop off fast near depletion. You'd have to look up what your resting voltage is, and see how far down you are to know how much you really used. An amp-hour recorder would be better still, (like the Trimetric) or your Pal monitor gizmo might have it built in already.
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I called Battle Born office, spoke with some young chicky chomping the gum. smh. She said the resting volts is same as float I said..mmm, K.
The float for my 24v bank it's 27.2 My charge setting is 28.8. So guess they rest at 27.2
I asked her how low they can go before it compromises the overall life of the batts. She says it don't matter as they'll just shut themselves off at ~10v or in my case ~20v. Uh, OK, bye.
REALLY ???
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amp hour recorder? never heard of it (note to self to google it)
Huh? my Pal monitor gizmo?? LOL You mean that Mate3s box they sold me? I ain't farted with it much yet - but I did get a error flash code today on "The Gizmo3s "....it said batts went up to 31 volts. I have't a clue what that's about. It was running fine when I checked it and has been OK all night. Maybe the batts didn't like taking 31 volts? Better check the settings.
That's how I woulda handled it.
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That's friggin crazy t'ain't it ??? BTW, the Outback Forum suggested that lil rebooty thing. Credits to Them.
rreidnauer
01-24-2020, 03:12 AM
Yes, I mean the Mate. [emoji6]
31 volts is bad. 28.8 max. The batteries probably have over volt protection on the built in BMS, but still should be avoided. You might need to reduce your charge controller max voltage settings a couple tenths of a volt.
I attached a typical voltage curve image. You can see how different they behave, compared to lead-acid, and how it makes it difficult to determine actual capacity used. Something that records amp-hours in and out of the batteries, will give a much idea of what's going on.
As for the noise being gone, maybe the inverter wasn't running on all eight cylinders the first time? [emoji16]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200124/0375e04b8eec17681a3545b0878963f8.jpg
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It happened again yesterday but this time voltage spiked to 37 ! Inverter shut down. Dammit. I lowered my charge level this morning. Sun is just poppin over the Peak. I'll sit here and babysit it. This Mate gizmo-thing is not at all helpful other than spitting out a high voltage error. Yeah,no shit. 37v high. Oh thanks.
I'm working with Outback. They say it may be batteries or inverter. Oh OK.
Trimetric is on my list. I'm losing patience. Setting up my other 2 solar systems in the past were painless, plug and play.
As far as the noise issue goes? Who knows? The ex-mechanic in me says that wasn't a good thing - and may return -or it did some damage elsewhere. I'm shopping for another inverter, seriously.
Rod, any recommendations on a 24v inverter 2000-2500w that can be hardwired in? If I can find something else I'll just swap them out and see what happens. I paid 2k for the Outback FXR.
loghousenut
01-24-2020, 07:02 AM
Just Rod? What about the rest of us? Is our advice just s bunch of chopped liver?
Hey, I'm the one that retrospectively solved your inverter noise issue in the first place! I feel slighted and if Bo were awake and sober, he would feel that I've been slighted too. Bo is a Marine and you know you don't want to get a Marine feeling all chapped in the cheeks... even an elderly Marine.
Kola, I think you should ask all of us equally which inverter would be right for you.
PS... I love chopped liver and don't feel maligned a bit by your hinted comparison.
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rreidnauer
01-24-2020, 08:10 AM
Yeah, I'm actually the worst person to recommend an inverter of that size. I've just been utilizing little baby inverters here and there.
The CC output voltage must be set wrong. It's the only thing that will allow the voltage to increase, as you haven't yet tied in a genny to the inverter/charger function.
Either the batteries don't have overvoltage protection built into the BMS, OR more likely, they are disconnecting and then open circuit panel voltage is hitting the inverter, triggering it to shut down.
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Rod, so far I have things stabilized.
When it hits my new set charge setting, it goes to float. I lowered it from BB rec of 28.8 to 28.0. I have been sitting here babysitting monitoring volages at different components waiting for the spike. so far so good. Fingers crossed.
So now OB is telling me "OH, you need the "Hub" and and the "FNDC" controllers to have a fully integrated system."
WTF !!! are you kidding me? I buy a OB inverter, alte store says..oh you need to buy the Mate3s to run it. I was like..OH, OK.
Now I find out I need two more OB components to make this inverter run to have a "FULLY INTEGRATED SYSTEM." And they're saying because I chose lithium ion batts that I need all these doo-hickies ! Well alright then, lesson learned I guess.
Friggin Crazy town I tell ya ! To top it off, this damn Mate POS thing does nothing for me at all.
It woulda' been nice if OB and their sales peeps would say "If you buy this inverter and run lithium batts - you also need this and this and that and that."
Blame goes on me - for being totally ignorant. For now I'll try and set this up with what I got. I'm not investing more cash into OB, that's for damn sure.
Now wheres my friggin beer?? Ooops, the plumber just arrived, I gotta lend a hand. BBL. :)
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Just Rod? What about the rest of us? Is our advice just s bunch of chopped liver?
Hey, I'm the one that retrospectively solved your inverter noise issue in the first place! I feel slighted and if Bo were awake and sober, he would feel that I've been slighted too. Bo is a Marine and you know you don't want to get a Marine feeling all chapped in the cheeks... even an elderly Marine.
Kola, I think you should ask all of us equally which inverter would be right for you.
PS... I love chopped liver and don't feel maligned a bit by your hinted comparison.
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LOL, I'm sorry, I missed your post too ! Oooooopsy.
OK. Which inverter? Or maybe should I go back to lead acid batteries ?
I'm open to anything if I can't tame this beast.
loghousenut
01-24-2020, 05:46 PM
LOL, I'm sorry, I missed your post too ! Oooooopsy.
OK. Which inverter? Or maybe should I go back to lead acid batteries ?
I'm open to anything if I can't tame this beast.
I am really the wrong guy to ask on this one, but thanks for asking. Maybe Rod will know.
That was kinda fun, wasn't it.
donjuedo
01-25-2020, 04:23 AM
Kola, I've gotten kind of lost about where this high voltage is. I do know that panels in very cold temps put out the highest DC voltage they're ever going to put out.
When the charge controller is converting solar panel DC to battery DC, it puts a load on the panels and that pulls down the panel voltage. Is your alarm only happening when the batteries are topped off (no more load on the panels)?
Yes, my Outback FM80 will give warning errors at around 140 volts ( I forget the exact number)- andt it did happen on a super cold day with my old system. I then re-wired my solar array and tweaked her down a bit..
But with this new system, I don't know EXACTLY when it happened other than it being around peak hours of CO sun. Interesting that you mention the load pull from my panels - because they normally come into my controller at 65-70 volts (full sun). But I've noticed at mid day the incoming volts drop to 50-55 volts ( still in full sun and that reading is from my controller) I was kinda scratching my head on that. But for the last 2 days (since I lowered my controller charge/bulk rate from 28.8 to 28.0) I've not had any high volt spikes. And yes I still see that panel volt drop (from 70 to 55) at mid day but all seems to be well. So far.
What I have seen in the last 2 days is that the sun comes up and batt voltage is approx 26. In about 2-3 hours the batt volts are at 28. I have my absorb time for 4 hours ( the recommendation by Battle Born) but it absorbs for about 15-30 minutes then goes straight to Float. From there it may drop a bit, cycle to rebulk/charge and then back to Float. Most of the day it seems happy in Float which is 27.2v (BB's recommendation for Float and Rest) I may tweak the absorb time down to 2 hours ad see what happens.
rreidnauer
01-26-2020, 05:37 AM
The panel voltages you're seeing are meaningless with an MPPT controller. Only when compared to the amperage does the voltage become relevant. (multiplying the two values to ascertain wattage)
When discussing electricity, I like to compare it to water, as most people will understand the function more clearly. So, an MPPT controller is just an amperage gate. Think of it like a dam for a small pond. Water level is you voltage, how much water flows out the dam is your amperage. If the dam gates are fully closed, the water (voltage) fills up behind the dam. If the dam gates are fully open, the water drains all out leaving none to flow. If we set the gate just right, we find a perfect balance between maintaining a water level, while getting the most flow down the stream. And this is what the controller is doing. Finding that balance to achieve maximum wattage. Voltages are going to dance around while conditions change. And those conditions aren't just the environmental ones. State of charge of the batteries also affects this balance.
Back to the water analogy. Let's say the battery is a small town down stream, that has a water tower. As that water tower approaches full, and depending on how much water the townspeople are using from the water tower, the flow into the water tower needs to be modulated by the dam gates. And this too is what the controller is doing.
So fear not. Your system is functioning properly. Also, the reason you are going into float so quickly, is that your battery bank is simply not large enough to accept four hours of bulk charging. Setting it to two hours will not alter results. There's nothing wrong with the system going to float early. I think setting a cap on bulk time, is more a protection measure to reduce internal overheating of the batteries under heavy charge loading. Seems none of us ever have the problem of too many batteries, for this to ever be a factor.
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Thanks for that Rod !
I run pellet stove through the night (ahh.. no more feeding the woodstove 3-4 times a night) In morning batt volts are ~26.0. Nice ;)
So I am safe to assume that I have plenty of power right now (in excess actually) and could easily run more things. I was thinking 12v electric hot water tank and a TV. Maybe a oil radiator too. :)
rreidnauer
01-27-2020, 05:37 AM
LOL, pretty sure the oil radiator is out.
I would not say "safe to assume excess power" is available. Again, with the flat voltage curve for state of charge, going by voltage reading in the morning doesn't really confirm much.
Would be best to use your Kill-o-watt meter, to see how many watt-hours your pellet stove uses in a 24 hour period, but I can make some assumptions since you said it typically draws 300~600 watts. I'll go right down the middle, at 450 watts.
》 So 450 times 24 hours is 10,800 watt-hours (10.8 KwHr)
》 Converting watt-hours to battery amp-hours, 10,800 divided by average bank voltage of 26.5v equals 407.5 amp-hours.
Since you have two 100ah strings of batteries in your bank, for a total of 200 amp-hours, I'd say you don't have excess. Of course, it appears you're not running that wattage continuously, otherwise you would be out of battery halfway through the day.
Run the Kill-o-watt for 24 hrs, and report back on the watt-hours recorded.
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Ignore the first one (volt reading) loading and deleting pics on this site sucks !
On low here's the 2 numbers that cycle back about every 5 seconds o the pelly. It's on this setting almost all the time , maybe 85% of the time ~40-70w (much lower than what I stated before, I think that was my old clunker pellet stove.
I'll see what it reads on start up when the igniter fires up ad what watts is uses when blower is in high --tomorrow.
And once again another odd way that the pics appear. smh.
I give up loading pics on here ! Now it says "I've reached my quotas." ??
With blower on high and auger on high it cycles from 90 to 104w.
loghousenut
01-28-2020, 03:09 AM
Considering that you abandoned the "world" to cut firewood for a living... well, I wish you would just get a woodstove and use the solar stuff for lights and computer.
This technical stuff is driving me even more nuts.
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I have a wood stove too !
OK, for start up the pelly uses 450w, I may do that twice a day. muhahahha, love the pelly and the modern world. But I am a raving lunatic still.
loghousenut
01-28-2020, 12:56 PM
So Kola, now that the modern world has replaced your wood stove, are you gonna get one of those Traeger pellet barBQ things and use it as a cook stove in the kitchen like the wood cook stove Gramaw had?
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Still have my woody, best heat, IMO. My buddy has a Traeger pelly smoker, thing is badazz. Si amigo. Up early today gotta see one of those modern dentists...lost my pliers.
Abandoning the world and living bare bones and supporting myself was a great trial run for me. I was laughed at and ridiculed. And I still get the sarcastic shit-talkers poking fun at me. Now that I've fined tuned things from those primitive days and know I can handle things- I'm all set. The timing was perfect.
So yes it appears the time has come. Maybe this is what was needed for us silly humans. Good luck everyone.
For those following the solar set up I have:
I reconfigured my battery bank and went back to a 12v system. Why? Using the OB 24v inverter seems to cause issues and I don't have time to play around - being middle of winter and this corona thing going on. I wired the 4 batts for 12v and installed my old standby 300watt Morningstar 12v inverter which is a little workhorse ...AND quiet. With the lithium batteries I still can run my pellet stove for upteen hours without worry. That 24v OB POS inverter is too damn noisy anyway. :)
Picture maybe? Nope. Cant load from phone, says its tooo big. Smh.
misplayed-hand
03-23-2020, 12:29 AM
To resize images I use this: https://resizeimage.net/
with 4 lithium batteries you can get rolling for approx $10k (batts, controller, inverter, panels and the small stuff, cables, connectors, breakers, etc)
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